So I think it is fair to say that many of the shots taken at \"other people\" in this thread have been directed at me. I think it is really cute of you anonymous people who have taken the opportunity to \"smite\" me in the past 2 days. I challenge anyone who smited me to PM me with their exact logic of why I deserved it, given that I was passing on observations and personal experiences. Are you smiting that the incident happened? Are you smiting that I brought it out into the open?
I\'ve stayed out of replying to this point, but some of the shots taken in my direction are pathetic.
Simply stated, it is not easy being gay. That being said the gay community is trying to gain acceptance. To do this, they have to overcome many barriers. Historically the group has pushed the envelope and demanded rights by doing things that would be considered agressive and \"in your face\" to get the public and media\'s attention for acceptance. They have not wilted into the background asking for acceptance.... rather they have protested, marched on capital steps, and used a vocal political strategy in an effort to become mainstream. They might have succeeded in gaining a foothold of acceptance. This has given many of them the courage to publicly display their lifestyle when in the past it was kept private and secret.
However many people, including many in the mainstream nudist community still do not approve of the lifestyle. I\'m not trying to pass judgement myself. I\'m more frustrated at the negative effects the behavior of that group causes naturist acceptance at public beaches and saunas.
I\'ll pick some selected quotes since I\'ve last posted where I\'ve wanted to interject a thought or two...
I don\'t think didi has a problem with the debating going on but I hope you guys see where your choice of words is a little harsh.
My words aren\'t harsh. They are dead on accurate. I\'ll not water them down to be PC.
a great atmosphere used to exist until the gays took over.
What if I said \"It was a great neighborhood until the blacks took over.\" It\'s just not right. I know that there were some gays that created the uncomfortable situation but there are better ways to phrase that statement.
So tell me what is right? How do you say it differently? Please give an example and show me a better way to phrase the statement. It was great until they started taking over. How else do you convey that thought when everyone who went there believes just that? What is the purpose of softening the statement? Who\'ll feel better?
your arguing two different points in this statement. After you justified stereotyping, you talked about your gay friends that are completely different and opposed to the pattern you associated with the gay community. If they are part of the gay community yet opposed to the inferences and patterns of the gay community, than you can\'t have a pattern that adequately represents the entire gay community. Therefore you cant truly \"draw inferences of patterns of behavior based on actions of a group.\"
Sure I can. My gay friends believe the actions of the majority of their peers are hindering gay acceptance. Yet the gays who do this don\'t seem to care. Their agenda is flaunting their lifestyle in your face, irrespective of how it politically affects your cause (naturism).
Wow, wasn\'t that a \"red rag to a bull\". It seems to me that a few too many people are too eager to seem \'politically correct\' rather than reasonable and realistic.
Too many posts to try to quote anyone but all I will say is I saw what I saw and won\'t be going back to that bath house. I wasn\'t trying to offend anyone, or target any groups, I was just stating facts based on my experience.
It is advertised in Sydney\'s equivalent of the NY Times as a safe friendly place where anyone can wind down and chill out for a couple of hours. Signs all over the place tell you that sexual activity of any nature is prohibited, and it is in the confines of a seemingly up-market Hotel etc.....I think I was entitled to think it was safe for anyone to go and not feel threatened.
Kengsington25...I am not homophobic. If I was, I wouldn\'t have gone there in the first place. You would have to be foolish or ignorant to go there thinking it would not be frequented by people of all persuasions. I was horrified that sex of any gender was taking place in a public setting. The fact that they were attempting to intimidate me for the brief period of time it took me to dress and leave, does make it worse.
I was more disappointed than anything else that what was a cool place had been turned into an aggressively gay place in the blink of an eye with complete disrespect and disregard for anyone else who happened to be in there.
Fact based upon experience.
This is PRECISELY what I was trying to convey. Thank you for the excellent post. I felt I was writing the reply myself when I read this.
Hi there, that\'s exactly what many of us object to. It has nothing to do with polititical correctness but the generalisation of gays as a whole. When somebody says \"it\'s another example of the gay community wrecking things for everyone else\" one can only assume that means the gay community as a whole. But those homosexuals are just a small element of the gay community. Many many gays would no doubt be just as horrified as nude-not-rude. What I and others objected to was gays all being tarred with the same brush.
I\'m that somebody. The gay community has created the situation for themselves based upon their actions. It is not isolated, it is not just a couple of people. They are not a \"small\" element of the community. Is it possible you haven\'t been to enough places around the world to see how widespread a problem it is? Part of the issue is that we can\'t determine the inverse affect it is causing. How many people are NOT visiting nude beaches, saunas or nudist parks, because of all the negative publicity and perceptions from incidents such as what happened to \"Nude_Not_Rude\".
Some of us also objected to these sexually deviant gay men being referred to as \"the gay community\" of which they may or may not be part. For all I know they may be married or have girlfriends and go to bathouses for a bit of gay sex on the side.
The are always a part of the \"gay community\" if they are sexually deviant with another man. Their marriage/dating status doesn\'t affect this.
On another issue I have also witnessed some straight couples getting jiggy with it in naturist environments so it certainly is not isolated to just gay men. But gay, straight, bi or whatever I think many of us agree the behaviour of those who turn a naturist environment into a sexual one is wrong and selfish. Best wishes
William
The problem comes back to perception and what is generally considered acceptable by the general public. If we want acceptance by the general public we (as a nudist community) need to behave in ways the general public accepts. The general public is tolerant of hetero displays of simple affection. They are NOT tolerant of gay displays of any kind of affection. They may accept that the lifestyle exists, but they don\'t want it shoved in their face. This may sound harsh but it is the current accepted norm. (To clarify, the definition of an naturist\'s inappropriate display of affection would be: \"The direct attempt at genital stimulation designed to illicit a sexual response that occurs in a public place with the intent of being on display or showing off to uninvolved parties.\" A simple hug, kiss, massage, footrub etc does not qualify based on that criteria.) (Simple affection is a simple hug, kiss, massage, footrub)
In fact some of these so-called \"gays\" who go to saunas are in fact married men with families who go to saunas looking for gay sex. I have been to gay bars and married guys have tried to pick me up. I\'ve even met closeted gay men from work that I thought were totally straight in gay bars with their gay lovers. Most gay men are just regular guys. It\'s like saying all straight couples are swingers. Nude-not-rude I am very sorry you\'re trip to the bathouse was spoilt but please let me assure you those men are not representative of the \"gay community\".
They are still gay. period. The fact they act out those types of behaviors makes them gay. I fully understand that not all gay men act out in that way. The problem is that the ones that do constantly push what they can get away with and enjoy the thrill it gives them to act out. You said above \" Most gay men are just regular guys. It\'s like saying all straight couples are swingers.\" That is true, however you don\'t find straight couples going into saunas or beaches trying to pickup other straight couples for sex. THAT just doesn\'t happen on the beach. Why is that?
It is because the swinging community is very secretive about who they are, who the others in the community are, and where their activities occur. You can\'t just decide one day to go join a swinging group. The are very careful who they let find out about them, and even how to go about joining them.
That can\'t be said about the gay community.
O.K. just to clear a few thing up here. I assure you all I was in no way getting defensive, fearing my opinions were being questioned. Everyone is free to question everything. The more questions the better.
I apologise if anyone was offended by my take on the situation, but I was just talking from my experience as I have previously mentioned and not basing my opinions on hear-say and speculation.
I am in no way fearful of being labeled the \'H\' word, but when Kensington25 asked me if it disturbed me more that they were gay, I just wanted to point out that it had nothing to do with the fact. I didn\'t mean to appear defensive or hysterical as Aymz put it, and reading back on my response, I don\'t think I was, but then that\'s just my opinion.
Please insert \"...some members of...\" into my initial post if that makes you feel better. One would be foolish to think I was referring to the community as a whole. How could I, I haven\'t met them all (and don\'t intend to make that one of my \"things to do\"). I can\'t add \"certain members\" because it\'s different people every time, not consistently the same ones. Every naturist situation I have been in has been tarnished by the inappropriate behaviour of \"some gay men\". Sure, you can stick your head in the sand and pretend you didn\'t see or hear what you just saw or heard, but it doesn\'t change the fact that it happened with a complete disrespect and disregard for anyone else who happened to be there.
Aymz, I can also be suggested that you too have been tempted to use generalisations. Your comment about my PC mention can surely only be based upon British usage. From my experience here in Australia, the term PC is used often when referring to exactly that, both in the average home and in the media. Oops...another generalisation....please read \"in conversation with many people around Australia as well as watching and reading the news and social commentary from Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne, Hobart, Adelaide, Perth, Darwin, Alice Springs and Canberra.\"
peace.
Another excellent wrap up by \"Nude_Not_Rude\". We are on the exact same page here too. I believe NudeNRude that Amy was referring to me and my use of terminology.
I\'m certain that this controversial topic has raised some hackles of some of those reading. To those that have smited me, I feel sorry for you. It appears that we truly can\'t debate and/or have a discussion on a hot topic without people taking the conversation personally.
This has shown me that I\'ll need to stay away from offering an opinion on certain topics. I challenge each of you who have taken action in replying to this thread. Each time you post an opinion, you need to ask yourself if you really believe that what you come to know or understand is based on a little or a lot of experience. Do you post broad comments based on your hunches, limited experience and what you wish is the case? Or do you post broad comments based on a large source of experiences across many different places? I\'d hope that all of you think how large this board is, the vast differences in experiences, the differing types of norms, the differing regions and their acceptability of nudity, and the amount of nude \"seasoning\" each of us has. Some have hardly any experience. Some are seasoned pro\'s having visited the world and participating in many different venues. Some people just plain have more insight.
I find it difficult to determine sometimes how deep we can delve into a topic on YNAI. Just to let you others know, I post to 4 other Forums, of which I\'m a moderator on 2 of them. We have a politics and hot topics forum where we can get a little more deep, discuss more controversial topics etc. Therefore, I do indeed know how to choose my words for full effect. As a moderator to those groups, being a judge/peacemaker when things need a little reining in is a skill that requires tact and deftness. I apologize if I\'ve stepped on toes or offended. It was not my intent to defame a person or group. Sometimes things just need to be presented so that different views can openly be shared.
Naturally yours,
Ryan
